Editor's note: A few months ago, Jim Mattison of Pontiac Historic Services informed us of a disturbing trend--the rapid increase in Pontiac auto fraud. Since Jim's business revolves around authenticating original Pontiac vehicles, and he has bought his fair share of musclecars long distance, we knew he would have great advice for enthusiasts who haven't been made aware of this situation and wouldn't know where to start. We interviewed him recently, asking some of the basic questions that a first-time long distance buyer might have. Here are his responses:
What are the benefits to buying a Pontiac long distance?
When you're looking at candidates over longer distances, you're opening up a broader base of available vehicles. If you are only searching your own backyard, you restrict yourself really quickly.
Another incentive is the ability to find higher quality vehicles. Those of us who live in the rust belt can find some good Pontiacs in the Southwest. If you're careful, you can find really solid cars far away. One of the nicest areas I've found great cars in is the Valley in California--there's absolutely no humidity. To disassemble those Pontiacs, all you do is break the bolts loose with a ratchet and unscrew them with your fingers. But remember that a lot of these vehicles that were originally from the Southwest have been moved to the Midwest and the East. Don't think that just because a GTO is in Connecticut that it's a rust bucket. It could have only been there for a few years.
But thinking that you will automatically find a rust-free car in these areas is a misconception. In the rust belt, vehicles rust from the bottom up from salt on the roads. In some parts of the South or Southwest, the salt spray from the ocean will rust a car from the top down. Most coming from California are pretty darn nice. But if the owner lives a block from the ocean, the car's going to have problems.
What are the most obvious drawbacks to these impersonal purchases?
It's very difficult--if not impossible--to assess something that you can't see or touch. It's like calling a doctor and saying, 'I don't feel well; what's wrong?' He would tell you to get your butt into the office so he could check you out.
It seems like a lot of buyers are fine with the idea of spending 5,000 to 30,000 dollars on a vehicle without laying eyes on the thing. Over the last two years, I've seen people who have not previously been in the car hobby dive in. They've gotten disgusted with stocks and portfolios, and have turned to collectible vehicles to try and recoup their losses, without knowing anything about them. Additionally, we have electronic media that actually makes it easier for them to make these mistakes. I wish I had a dollar for every time someone sent me a letter or e-mail about how they got taken on a Pontiac, and I mean big money. They stroked a check and then the car, and reality, hit their doorstep.
How do you start looking for a collectible Pontiac?
You need to zero in on what you want: the specific year, a hardtop or convertible, which options. Next you should gather all of the information available about that Pontiac. Granted, some of the info will be incorrect, but nonetheless, you'll find out what is right and wrong. There are many good books and web sites where you can evaluate your options. You will learn in a short amount of time what the market on a given model should be. Join a club and talk with other people who own Pontiacs. You'll hear about problem areas of the vehicles, and problem people who sell them as well.
What are some clues that you can get over the phone that it's a bad deal?
I'm not a psychologist, but I've learned something about people: If you're speaking to someone and everything sounds good, they send you out a video, but you know something is still not right, keep talking. If you keep up the conversation long enough, the skeletons about the Pontiac will come up--and the seller will bring it up for you!
I usually start a conversation with, "Tell me about your car," and then I shut up. As he's talking, I'm writing down my own notes about the miles, the originality, and the vehicle's condition. You can never figure out what the guy's interpretation of 'nice' is over the phone.
Another thing: pictures don't work. It's human nature that the owner will take photos from the most attractive angle. They won't show something that you need to know about. I like to see at least a ten-minute video. That allows them to go all the way around the Pontiac, in the engine bay, trunk, underneath. Have the seller video the vehicle with the engine running so that you can hear bad noises and see smoke. Also the seller should demonstrate the proper operation of all controls and accessories. Then he should show the Pontiac driving up and down the street so you can see that it moves under its own power. I ask them to put it in the mail, and I tell them that I'll keep it for a couple of days, then send it back. Then you can freeze it and replay it as much as you want. You can get a friend, or a restorer, or a mechanic to look at it as you take notes. After you take as many notes as you possibly can, call the seller back with some questions. Based on those responses, you should be able to dial in closer to the vehicle, and let your intuition rule. Make a decision with your head, not your heart! Many people see what the Pontiac can be, not what it is. If the responses don't sound right, keep talking, but if you've gotten all you can get and things still don't add up, run away from the deal.
Are there certain statements by the seller that would tell you to walk away immediately?
It's not anything you can nail down, like they said A, B, etc. wrong. Get a feel of the conversation and let your conscience be your guide.
What are some of the things that can only be verified in person?
The true condition of the Pontiac--like small dents, or the gloss value of the paint. A camera lens does a wonderful job, but there are things that it can't pick up.
Is there an objective point where traveling to see the Pontiac becomes mandatory?
I would say yes, but it will be different for each individual and each Pontiac. Kind of like having different thresholds for pain. Everyone has a different level regarding finances, comfort level, and desire. You either hit a point where you have to look at it, or just write a check. Besides, standing face-to-face with the seller could save you some money. I remember standing in a seller's driveway with my trailer. I had the cash, but we were a thousand dollars apart on the deal. I made an offer, he took it, and I got the vehicle for less than he wanted.
What should you remember if you've made the decision to see the Pontiac in person?
Ask a ton of questions first, but don't insult an honest seller. I once saw a R/A-II Firebird for sale in Hemmings. Lots of people had called about it, but not a single soul had gone to see it in person because the ad said it had a non-original engine. Of course, no one asked if he had the original except for me, which he did. We had come to a bit of an agreement on the phone, so I loaded up the trailer and took cash, because I wanted to try to get the R/A-II a little cheaper. When I got there and saw it, I just about burst out laughing it was so perfect. Everything about it was right, it was a brand-new car. But I still wanted to get it a little cheaper. So I said to the seller, "I like your car, but would you take this much?" He said, "Look, you and I had a verbal agreement on the phone. If I misrepresented this vehicle in any way, let's sit down and renegotiate. Otherwise, get your damn truck and trailer out of my driveway." He had called my bluff, so I asked him to knock off a couple of hundred bucks for the gas I had used, and he agreed. And you should have heard the people who called and never went to see it--boy, were they mad.
How can buyers protect themselves before making a purchase?
The biggest problem for the Pontiac hobby right now is fake cars. You should remember that if a deal sounds too good to be true, chances are it is. Know the market value and question cheap vehicles.
I believe that most people are honest, hard-working folks. But there are enough people who should be banished from the planet who make it bad for everybody else. So do a ton of research and get as much info as possible about that model. Use your head, not your heart when making a decision whether or not to buy. See this auto for what it is, not what it could be. If something doesn't smell right, don't do it--and always get your own set of documentation for a vehicle before you buy it. If that rubs the seller the wrong way, tell them that you appreciate what they have, but you don't know them and they don't know you. Explain that you would like to see your own set of paperwork for the car. You can even ask if he would be willing to pay the $35 for the paperwork so you can verify the Pontiac's history. And if the guy gets real cantankerous about it, maybe you don't want to be dealing with him.
But this paperwork can protect enthusiasts in other ways, too:
I got a letter from a gentleman who wanted us to send him paperwork on a '68 GTO. When we looked up the VIN, it came back as a LeMans hardtop, not as a GTO. We sent it back, telling him that he gave us the wrong VIN. He replied in so many words that we wouldn't know this Pontiac from a hole in the ground, and to check it again. I sent him back a letter saying something was wrong, and asked him to check the car, not the paperwork. He wrote back saying he bought it new, and his mother liked the '68 hardtop. So she went out and bought a '68 LeMans hardtop. We figured out that when she sold the car, they canceled the insurance off his GTO, and kept renewing the insurance on the '68 LeMans. Turns out he was checking the wrong paperwork, and he apologized about telling us that we didn't know what we were talking about. That could have been a bad situation down the road.
What is a safe method of handling the monies involved in the deal, such as the deposit?
There are two ways to buy a Pontiac long-distance, and in both you would use different methods.
One scenario involves stroking a check and having the vehicle shipped to you. This shouldn't happen unless you're absolutely certain about the purchase.
The other scenario is that you send a deposit and want to go look at your find, which is more common.
If you are completely comfortable in sending the full amount, a cashier's check is the only way to go. The best way to get it out to the seller is a FedEx or Priority Mail-type service. Work with the owner to make transportation arrangements for the vehicle and you'll be set.
If you are going to look at the Poncho in person, assuming it is the real deal, send them a mutually agreed-on deposit that is sizeable enough to make the seller believe you're serious. Make your own travel arrangements--you might even want to bring a third party along to check the Pontiac out. You can either bring a trailer, or contact a transport company to get it home, providing that a deal is made. Always take a cashier's check. If there's a dispute on the selling price, take a check for the figure you're comfortable with, but bring a little cash to close the deal in case they don't budge on the final price.
Are there any common scams that the buyer should be looking for?
There are a lot of scams out there, but I won't mention any for fear of glorifying the criminals and creating copycats. But there are lots of things done by ordinary sellers out of ignorance. The new owner may have bought the Pontiac in good conscience, and is selling the vehicle without it being what it is supposed to be. Investigate before you invest.
Which Pontiacs are misrepresented most?
GTOs from '64-65, Judges from '69-71, '67-69 Firebirds, '73-74 455 Super-Dutys. But no car is safe from this problem.
Along with the PHS documents, shouldn't a title search be done? This might tell you that the car has had a new VIN plate installed. What if the perfect, all-original, numbers-matching 1965 GTO that you are looking at was sold by a previous owner as a rolling shell parts car with no engine or transmission?
Not all titles will show that, and there are a million different ways to wash a title. There are states where you can generate a title with a bar napkin and lipstick. Add in shaky dealers and other folks ...
I had a gentleman contact us to send him info on his '72 GTO convertible. I knew that model wasn't made in '72, so I called him and told him I would send the check back since Pontiac never made a '72 convertible GTO. He said that it had a 455 HO in it, so I decided to process the request anyway. Turns out the 'GTO' was a LeMans Sport convertible and it was supposed to have a 350. It was also supposed to be red. I called him again, and he started getting a little short with me. He said he would take pictures of the trim and VIN tag. He sent them, and that's when it hit me. In this case, he had doctored the VIN tag--and all of the digits lined up besides the engine number. I called the National Insurance Crime Bureau and they ran a title search. We found out that the owner had changed the title for the bigger engine. There were two titles, one that my Pontiac record showed and another showing the 455 HO. The sneaky owner had gone to the Florida department of motor vehicles and said that the title was one number off. The DMV corrected it, and everything was fine until I stepped into the picture. The FBI got involved, and he was picked up for tampering with the VIN tag along with a host of other offenses. And all of the charges stuck, too.
What clues indicate that the paperwork might be altered?
There are no telltale signs, that's the scary part.
Is there any recourse once you have been ripped off?
There are laws on the books for fraud that have pretty good teeth, but they will vary from one state to another. Michigan, my home state, has some pretty serious laws that can send folks off to the crossbar hotel for awhile. The best thing someone could do would be to contact the ARMO Group at SEMA.
Get together all of your Pontiac's information and make sure that you haven't been very carefully maneuvered. I would strongly recommend that you get a competent attorney. Many times it only takes a carefully written letter from an attorney to undo the process.
Do you have any closing thoughts?
Specifically concerning Pontiacs, I'm not saying that everybody out there is a crook. Most people are fine, but when you're spending money, you need to be cautious. Before you strike a check for a Pontiac, be sure its 'authentic' paperwork is real. What a person can do on a computer these days is amazing. And just because someone is pushing papers under your nose, it doesn't mean they're real. The only way you can verify this paperwork is to get your own set. We have a fax-back service that can verify the Pontiac's authenticity by the next day at the latest. This way, you know that the Pontiac is what they say it is.
My thoughts on this entire subject are this: We're not going to have all of the answers--we're going to eliminate quite a few pitfalls, but we don't know it all. I would encourage readers to write in with good or bad experiences about buying or selling Pontiacs. I could darn near write a book about this area.
For more information you can go to the Pontiac Historic Services web site. Here you can download the order forms for information packages about your Pontiac, as well as see some of the sample packages. You may mail the completed forms to: PHS, PO Box 884, Sterling Heights, Michigan 48311. If you have a credit card handy, you can fax to 248-583-0596.